tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8656459036359173101.post224808314135430239..comments2019-09-04T22:18:00.591-05:00Comments on elephants of grace: rebellion is always justified . . .Jon Eckenrodhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01032088724364835990noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8656459036359173101.post-66546909579288333122010-10-31T20:14:03.320-05:002010-10-31T20:14:03.320-05:00Ken, I want to further clarify a few things. First...Ken, I want to further clarify a few things. First, as I mentioned in the initial post, there are different kinds of authority. My contention is that pastors do not have the kind of authority that a judge, a police officer, a parent, or a boss has. Yet, this is the kind of authority that too many take. Second, you mentioned that you are not the "do it because I said so" type of leader. I know that to be true. And that is great for the people in your church. But the problem as I see it is that the way we interpret these passages at times leaves it up to the personal discretion of the particular leader. So, if someone is fortunate enough to sit under a leader like yourself, they do not experience spiritual abuse. But if they are unfortunate enough to sit under someone who believes they are too be strictly obeyed because the Bible says so, then those people are controlled and stifled in their opportunities to truly grow as Christians. So, what I am saying is that Scripture does not give pastors/Christian leaders the option to be a "hard-line" leader or not depending on their personality, etc. So, with that in mind, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Hebrews 13:17 that it is written to "followers" to tell them how they should approach the instruction of their church leaders--and that it is not written to those leaders to tell those followers how they should follow. But, the problem, even with that take, is that it is the church leaders that are to help congregants understand all scriptures--including this one. So, by the nature of the position the church leader can still abuse this verse. So, once again (ad nauseum), I contend that the obedience is to the teaching and not to the teacher (as such), and that the teaching must be firmly grounded in the scriptures. Also, I see what you are saying about how the leaders referred to in this verse "must give account," and this would imply that they must show results for their work--ostensibly the behavior of their followers. Again, I believe this is why too many church leaders (pastors) take too much on themselves. They believe they must give account for the behavior of their congregants. This passage does not say that. They must give account for what they teach, not for the behavior of the listeners. Again, I can see how this verse can be interpreted otherwise, but as you pointed out, it is not written to leaders. So, it is not meant to give those leaders a benchmarking tool for how well their instruction is being followed. The point is for followers of Christ to "obey" and "submit" to proper "teaching" of Scripture. This has perhaps only added confusion to the discussion, but I hope it clarifies a little more where I am coming from. Thanks again for your continued dialogue with these posts.Jon Eckenrodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01032088724364835990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8656459036359173101.post-17042126346650083232010-10-31T19:07:28.035-05:002010-10-31T19:07:28.035-05:00Hi, Ken. Thanks again for your response. First, th...Hi, Ken. Thanks again for your response. First, the word "obey" may be best contextually, as long as it is understood to be in the middle voice, and is not used by those in authority to get those under them to submit. I think you have to agree that this is one of the worst abuses of this scripture. But the root--Peitho--does mean to persuade or trust. Second, the root word for hupeiko is not "eiko" but "akouow," which is "to hear." And again, it is properly translated "obey," but again when we are looking at the benefit received by the subject, then to "listen" and be "persuaded" is a perfectly reasonable translation--contextually. We are probably splitting hairs at this point. Again, my point is not that pastors have no authority. But it is not the authority to control people's lives. And yes, it is proper and even commanded that a pastor or other Christian leader (or even Christians in general) warn those who follow them when they see them getting into areas of danger. But again, you will have to admit that many pastors do "demand" obedience from their cogregants--which is not at all the kind of authority that scripture gives them. As you are aware, I have only scraped the surface on the subject. For one thing, the word for authority--exousia--is never ascribed to church leaders, although it is ascribed to magistrates. So, to say that church leaders have the kind of authority that requires obedience of their "subjects" is just wrong-headed, in my opinion. Again, to say otherwise is to say that we should all still be Catholics--I don't believe the Roman church ever gave "permission" for any group to depart. So if obedience to church authority is what Hebrews 13:17 is getting at, then we all need to repent and go back to the Catholic church. But the Pope, bishops and preachers are not given this kind of authority. Their authority is always tied strictly to what they are "teaching," which brings us back to my exegesis of Hebrews 13:17. This is the only authority the Pharisees had, even though they tried to assume more. Thanks again for your thoughts. Let's keep the dialogue going. This is good. God bless!Jon Eckenrodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01032088724364835990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8656459036359173101.post-22423660387046174212010-10-30T14:21:14.012-05:002010-10-30T14:21:14.012-05:00Jon
I think you know I'm not in the heavy dut...Jon<br /><br />I think you know I'm not in the heavy duty "do it because I said to" camp. However, I really do think you've got it wrong on your exegesis of Heb 13:17. As you know, translation is almost always contextual. While "peitho" can be translated "trust" or "persuade", it can be translated "obey", and is translated obey seven times in the KJV. The larger context of verse 17 is not listening to a respected teacher, the larger context is a series of instructions. "Offer the sacrifce of praise, do good and share with others, pray for us." To translate the instruction as "be persuaded by those..." just doesn't work very well, particularly when followed by hoopiko. The roots are "hoopo"-preposition of, under, by, with, in and "eiko" - "yield" or "be weak". It has no relationship to hear or listen. <br /><br />Back to peitho. Same word used in Acts 5 when the Apostles ask "who should we obey, God or man?" You might tranlsate that "by whom shoule we be persuaded", or "whom should we trust", but contextually, "obey" really does work best. Same thing in Hebrews 13. Obey is by far the better contextual translation. Now the middle voice. I think Middle voice actually strengthens the instruction. MV is interesting because it doesn't exist in modern English. My understanding is that use of th middle voice emphasizes the subject while active voice emphasizes teh action. So, here the writer to the Hebrews is emphasizing the role of the participant in submitting. I read it as "voluntarily obey". Now, here's where I think your understanding and mine cross paths. I really do think the best translation is Obey and Submit, but obedience and submission are voluntary and not coerced. This is written to those who are under authority to encourage them to obey and submit, not to those in authority as a proof text for demanding obedience and submission. It's similar, in my view to husbands and wives. Wives are to submit voluntarily as to the Lord, and husbands can NEVER demand submission. <br /><br />So, to your case in point. As a pastor, I think it is entirely appropriate to say to someone, "I think the movies you're attending are a problem. I don't see how they glorify God, from everything I can ascertain, they communicate an anti-Biblical worldview" and so on. Then, "I encourage you to change your viewing habits and will be praying that God helps you in this area of your life." Now it's up to that individual to apply Heb 13:17--I can't demand it of them. In fact, Prov 24:11 suggests that we each have a resposnsibility before God in this regard. The writer to the Hebrews echoes that sentimate in the next phrase of verse 17. "They keep watch over you as men who must give an account." Keeping watch is far more active than a disengaged philosophizing or ebven active teaching. Contextually, Ken's very loose translation "those in authority keep watch over you, make sure its a joyful thing and not one of grief by voluntarily obeying them and submitting to them." <br /><br />Now even with my traditional translation, we're still left with the dilemma of "what should a Christian do when a pastor or someone else in authority is wrong?" That's a legitimate question, and one I think Scripture answers. But the answer isn't "remove the concept of Biblical authority."<br /><br />Since my resposne is getting as long as your psot, I'll quit.<br /><br />kenKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06639061353882774694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8656459036359173101.post-43674994309865604422010-10-30T10:54:43.801-05:002010-10-30T10:54:43.801-05:00Hi, Sharon. Always good to hear from you. The sad ...Hi, Sharon. Always good to hear from you. The sad thing for me is that I always think of multiple things that I didn't say after I publish the post. All is well with us. We love being grandparents. God bless!Jon Eckenrodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01032088724364835990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8656459036359173101.post-8825379240726783432010-10-29T13:38:44.060-05:002010-10-29T13:38:44.060-05:00Interesting, Jon. It's exhausting how you bre...Interesting, Jon. It's exhausting how you break everything down (I would never make it in bible school - I am too ADD). Hope all is well with you and yours...Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12810291749397047232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8656459036359173101.post-68182164122947586782010-10-29T09:51:14.406-05:002010-10-29T09:51:14.406-05:00Very Good Article, Jon. We are definitely on the s...Very Good Article, Jon. We are definitely on the same page with this one. Great books too that you suggested. I've read the last three. Enjoying Your blog. Keep writing!Connie Schmollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03835459042459612441noreply@blogger.com